JPM Posted November 8, 2004 Share Posted November 8, 2004 Quelqu'un peut il me renseigner sur le rôle du trés petit trou que l'on trouve à la base des lames des pointes tri-lames des scythes et des avars? Merci d'avance J.P.M Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manole Posted November 8, 2004 Share Posted November 8, 2004 Seraient-ce des lames sifflantes, les pointes ont été abordées sur le forum, mais je ne sais pas si il y a eu un "transfert technologique" des pointes aux lames? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nono Posted November 8, 2004 Share Posted November 8, 2004 ??? essaye de poser ta question sur Arc Chasse (il y a un lien avec web archerie), je pense que tu y trouvera des personnes plus aptes à répondre. A+ Nono Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gallus Sinensis Posted November 8, 2004 Share Posted November 8, 2004 On pourrait voir une photo des lames scythes en question ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JPM Posted November 9, 2004 Author Share Posted November 9, 2004 Je n'arrive pas à envoyer la photo "vous ne pouvez uploader ce genre de fichier" mystère de la technologie ou sommes nous toujours à l'âge de pierre de l'informatique.... je l'ai envoyée par mail à pierre peut être que cet élégant, fin, distingué et spirituel jeune homme réussira t il à la faire passer Merci d'avance. :115: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lelegossalas Posted November 9, 2004 Share Posted November 9, 2004 je l'ai envoyée par mail à pierre peut être que cet élégant, fin, distingué et spirituel jeune homme réussira t il à la faire passer Mais c'est de la corruption de moderateur ca !!! :whistling: Pour ton pb, verifie la taille de ton image, car tu ne peux pas poster de jpg de taille > 80 ko. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tox Posted November 10, 2004 Share Posted November 10, 2004 T'appelles ça corruption ? moi j'appelle ça de la "lèche" !! :109: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pierre Posted November 10, 2004 Share Posted November 10, 2004 Voila les photos exellent ami. désoléde ne pas avoir pu les poster avant mais comme j'ai un boulot de 3 mois au loin et sans accès a internet, je suis moins efficace. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JPM Posted November 10, 2004 Author Share Posted November 10, 2004 Merci Pierre, dévoué et trés cher ami, avec ce document je pense que les érudits qui fréquentent ce site vont pouvoir me renseigner A plus J.P Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pierre Posted November 11, 2004 Share Posted November 11, 2004 on trouve la même chose sur certaines "trade points " indiennes métalliques. eles étaient fabriquées par les européens et lescolporteurs qui les commercialisaient passaient un fil e fer dans le trou pour le transport... Donc je ne pense pas que ce soit ça... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JPM Posted November 11, 2004 Author Share Posted November 11, 2004 J'y ais pensé mais je ne crois pas. J'ai aussi envisagé qu'on pouvait y passer un fil imprégné de substance toxique, hypothése qui me plairait assez et qui collerait bien avec ces braves gens joueurs et primesautiers... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gallus Sinensis Posted November 12, 2004 Share Posted November 12, 2004 J'en ai 2 similaires, plus tardives que mes scythes (saka), elles sont en fer. Je n'ai pas la moindre idee du pourquoi des trous. Peut etre un leger sifflement lors du vol ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pierre Posted November 12, 2004 Share Posted November 12, 2004 bon qui connait un forgeron pret a faire des trous? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JPM Posted November 24, 2004 Author Share Posted November 24, 2004 Gallus, Merci pour tes photos de pointes à trous, Peux tu les dater approximativement? Le mystère demeure... J.P (C'était un test pour Pierre....un peu déçu!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gallus Sinensis Posted November 25, 2004 Share Posted November 25, 2004 J'ai mis la meme photo de mes pointes trouées sur ATARN et voici ce que Bede DWYER m'a répondu : I have seen arrows like this described as fifth to ninth century in steppe contexts from archaeological reports. They were probably used much later as well. The holes were probably for decoration and maybe for identifcation. Small holes do not reduce weight much and, on large, effective heads, poison is unlikely. There are two other reasons that might affect the design. It could have some religious of shamaic purpose. There might also be an element of conservatism because a previous type of arrow head had large, more functional holes. The Jurchen used three-lobed holes on arrow heads and stirrups as part of a common design that might be linked to later Turkish textile patterns. Bede Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gallus Sinensis Posted November 25, 2004 Share Posted November 25, 2004 Dernières nouvelles, Stephen SELBY a ajouté ça : They are Liao or Jin. The holes may have simply allowed them to be bound to the shaft with some sinew. Alternatively, they may have had some metal attachment to increase the size of the wound that they caused. (They would have been hunting arrows.) Mais Stephen n'est pas chasseur, je ne pense pas que les familiers d'Archasse trouvent que la suggestion d'accrocher des bricoles en ferraille sur les trous améliore la mortalité des pointes de chasse :28: . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gallus Sinensis Posted November 27, 2004 Share Posted November 27, 2004 Complement, Bede Dwyer a repondu ceci a Stephen : Stephen, I disagree with you about the possible uses of the holes. The sinew binding argument is unlikely because the method of sinew binding used on Chinese and steppe arrows with tangs is quite sufficient for the task. An arrow maker didn't need any binding similar to the native Americans used on their tangless stone arrow heads. Even large iron arrow heads were used in the Qing with simple sinew bindings covered with paper or bark. Both heads have clear shoulders where the shaft and binding usually stop. The wound-enlarging argument has the problem that the addition of pieces to the rear of the blades would reduce penetration which as a result would limit the cutting action of the edges of the blade. This would act as a brake on the arrow once it hit something. As for the dates, I am fairly certain you are right, though I think the spread is wider as is the geographic area they were used. I think I have some photographs of similar heads from the Moho cultural region in Manchuria. Bede Donc, on n'est a peu pres surs de la date uniquement (fin XIIeme-debut XIIIeme siecle) mais pour les trous, pas d'explication scientifique. Restent les raisons religieuses ou culturelles... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gallus Sinensis Posted November 28, 2004 Share Posted November 28, 2004 (edited) Nouvel intervenant, Jack Farrel (specialiste des guerriers des steppes et ecrivant notamment dans The Glade a ce sujet) : Romain and all; This is a partial illustration from an upcoming publication by Karasev and myself. These were found at shaman altar sites in Kirghiz Republic, Central Asia. In his opinion, a sound which was emitted was not intended for cannine, equine or human ears. en postant l'illustration ci dessous. Je reponds : You mean the little holes emitted sounds that were not to be heard by canine, equine or human ears ? Who was supposed to hear them then ? Bats ? sa reponse : Romain; The Gods. Arrows were left as prayers at shaman altar sites. An arrow's speed, precision and authority made it the perfect instrument to supplicate the supernaturals and predict the future. -j- J'ai pas l'air con avec mes chauves-souris... :19: C'est toujours ce qui me manque pour pleinement aprecier la position des Texans et des Guerriers des Steppes : j'ai toujours tendance a oublier la dimension religieuse... Edited November 28, 2004 by Gallus Sinensis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pierre Posted November 28, 2004 Share Posted November 28, 2004 Que veut tu le cartésianisme est français... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gallus Sinensis Posted November 29, 2004 Share Posted November 29, 2004 Descartes s'en servait précisément pour prouver l'existence de Dieu. Si je me souviens bien de mes cours de philo... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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